In 2018, the hero Spider-Man returned to the big screen, but he looked very different from how fans had seen him before. The web-slinger was animated, and now he went by the name Miles when out of costume. The first in a series of visually striking films, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, was massively successful, grossing hundreds of millions of dollars and winning the Best Animated Feature Academy Award.
Perhaps most notably among all of its impressive feats and wins was the movie’s soundtrack. The film produced serval singles, with one standing out as not just the biggest of the bunch, but one of the most popular tunes of all time.
Post Malone and Swae Lee’s “Sunflower” was a massive commercial success. The single shot right to No. 1 on the Hot 100 and remains one of the biggest hits of the past decade. Recently, it was certified double-diamond by the RIAA for shifting at least 20 million equivalent units in the U.S. alone. It’s the first—and so far only—song to reach that milestone.
It took five years, but a sequel, Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse, was finally released in 2023. Like its predecessor, it was beautiful, a smash at the box office, and critics loved it. A wholly new soundtrack was conceived, written, produced, and recorded, and it features some of the hottest names in hip-hop, such as Lil Wayne, Offset, Future, Lil Uzi Vert, and was helmed by super producer Metro Boomin.
For all of its incredible wins in the music world, the animated Spider-Man franchise still feels like it hasn’t earned its due. The series has produced a number of hits, including one that outsold both Whitney Houston’s “I Will Always Love You” from The Bodyguard and “My Heart Will Go On” from Titanic—so where are the awards? The Grammys, the Oscars? Why has it been passed over in favor of less popular, less successful movies and songs?
Music supervisor Kier Lehman worked on both movies, and he is currently up for another Guild of Music Supervisors Award for his contributions to the incredibly creative project. While he may be earning his flowers, the songwriters, producers, and artists behind the tracks that bolster the film and made it the force it became were seemingly left out in the dark, unacknowledged.
I spoke with Lehman recently about how he and his collaborators came up with sounds for places that don’t yet exist, trying to follow historic successes, and the snubs from the Academy Awards that are, ultimately, “disappointing.”
Hugh McIntyre: Tell me a bit about your day-to-day, the work you actually did on this film.
Kier Lehman: Sure. It goes from early on and it evolved, through the production process. And it’s an animated film, so it’s a long production process. Then it was delayed, so that made it even longer. It starts when I’m getting a script and reading that and, of course, this is a sequel. We had the first one and I went through that process and kind of knew the characters and what the sound is and we’re in New York. For the most part, we’re in New York and this universe. Once I read the script, I could see we’re going to different kinds of universes. Then I would start a conversation with the filmmakers. They’d be like, we’re going to this universe and it’s going to be this cross between Mumbai and Manhattan. So what music would be in that kind of universe in the future? Those were the initial conversations.
I made a batch of five or six playlists for them based on characters and then a couple of locations. So it was a playlist for Gwen, a playlist for Miles. And then the locations like New York and Mumbattan. That was the idea. Those kinds of universes that were in that version of the story. We got together and went through that music. I had sent it to them so they had a chance to review it. And then we got together and talked through the playlist and the music in them and things that they liked and things that they didn’t like or that they needed more of. Then they started using that music as they were putting the movie together with the storyboards and trying different scenes and different versions of scenes. So they were using that music to kind of set a tone and the temporary outline of what these scenes are going to be and what the sound is.
Then we would keep revising those and going through them. They would send me a new scene or an updated version of a scene or they would ask for something different. Maybe the songs I sent didn’t quite work for what they wanted, so they wanted some more options.
We went through like that for a year or so. Then as the scenes became more solidified, there’s some more animation that we could see…rough outlines. There were a few scenes that were really tough to kind of get the right song for–even in the temp version of it. We just kept plugging away at those scenes until we had a pretty good outline and a good rough sketch and temp version of a guide for what these songs are going to be.
Then we started engaging with Metro [Boomin]. We had our film executive, Spring Aspers, and the label executive, Dana Sano, who are very involved in the process of the soundtrack and are really leading that part of it. [They] came with the idea of bringing in Metro as somebody to produce a soundtrack with us.
Once we worked out a schedule with everybody, we had a meeting with him, presented him scenes from the movie and some stuff with music in it to give him an idea of what it looked like and the type of scenes and the story and get him inspired and excited about it. Then we started getting tracks from him and some other original music from other artists [from the] label. Spring and I were bringing in original music from other artists that were written with certain scenes in mind once we had those guides.
We started working with that music in the cuts. We would get a batch of music almost every week. We would be working with a new batch of music and we’re trying them in different scenes and just trying to find the right fit. Of course, then we wanted to make sure that Metro was the lead voice in this process and making sure that this was his curation and songs that he produced for us were getting into key moments in the movie.
That kept going on and on. Slowly we were locking in songs in different scenes. Until very close to the end, we were changing things or adding songs in or finding the right piece. Something that is part of the process with Phil Lord and Chris Miller, the producers, is that they never want to settle for something. They never want to just let things be good enough. They really push till the very last minute to make sure that everything is as good as it possibly can be. They are not afraid to open something up and re-examine it and ask questions.
Sometimes the tone of a scene might change a little bit as they develop the story and the song might not be working the right way anymore. So we go back and we start taking it apart and looking at other songs and trying to find the new right fit for that scene. So that goes to like the very, very end.
McIntyre: Your work started before Metro Boomin, before Daniel Pemberton [the score’s composer]. So you were sort of the architect of the sonic style of this film.
Lehman: You could say that. Even from the beginning, from the first film, there’s a lot of great people involved in the movies. There’s three directors on each one, and then two producers. So we’re all really collaborating together. A lot of the style of the music came from that first film when we were working together early on and they were developing like, this is Miles. It’s going to be in New York. We need classic hip-hop, but it’s very focused on Miles’ sound and what would his music be to really focus that soundtrack into one kind of character story.
For me, it was developing that. It’s like, okay, this is the kind of thing that you guys want. Here’s that music. Let me bring you ideas and playlists based off of that to start filling in all these scenes and help use that to tell the story.
For the second one, we had that base already there. So this time it was just expanding on that and giving them like, what’s this new version? What’s this futuristic version of that? And it evolves, as we go through it, when it’s the stuff that I’m bringing early on and then Metro taking from that and putting his version of that into the film. Then it became like a really amazing collaboration where a lot of things changed once Metro brought his music vision in. Because then, it was a collaboration with him and these filmmakers.
McIntyre: I don’t think any part of this job is easy, but, if filmmakers come to you and say, we’re looking for old-school New York hip-hop, that’s something that you can go and research. Whereas, the challenge of discovering what Mumbai sounds like in the future. How do you go about even beginning that process of creating a sound that doesn’t exist?
Lehman: I think one of the things, as the story guided…it’s a fusion of New York and Mumbai. It started with researching artists that are fusing those kinds of sounds together, taking those two worlds and mixing them together. I just started digging into artists in India that are really progressive and pushing forward [with] traditional sounds, but also combining them with modern Western production.
I was able to find a few artists, and one in particular, who ended up giving us a really great track for that moment, who was doing this really great kind of progressive electronic version of traditional Indian dance music. He sent me a bunch of tracks and it was really great to work with. Took a little while to find the right artist who was also understanding of our process and how we work and what we needed.
Once we presented that to the producers, they were really excited about it. There were a couple of tracks that were really great, and one of them stood out because of the unique sounds.
McIntyre: The first in this series of films was so massively successful on the music front in every way. So when you begin the second chapter, are you at all intimidated? Is there pressure?
Lehman: For sure, there’s pressure. I think when you have a soundtrack that’s so successful, especially with one massive song [Post Malone and Swae Lee’s “Sunflower”]… That is one of the biggest soundtrack songs ever.
McIntyre: It’s the biggest song ever of all time, by the way. It’s the most certified song ever.
Lehman: Right. You can’t plan for that. It’s just something that happens organically and has to be the stars aligning. There’s obviously pressure to even come close to something like that. To even be in the same world as that. To bring something else that’s going to stand up to that.
We realized we’re not going to do that again. We’re not going to try to make another “Sunflower,” necessarily. It was just about making really good music that was going to connect with the audience and connect with the film.
I think that’s part of what the success was, initially, for “Sunflower.” That song took on a life of its own once it came out. All the other songs in that first film were woven in with the story and the way they were cut into the scenes, they were all edited together–essentially the scenes were edited with the songs in mind, and vice versa.
That was another part of the process on this film. We wanted to make sure like we had the music at a point where we can make sure that it all felt organic and felt of one piece and we weren’t just cutting these songs into a scene that already existed. Also that we weren’t making songs that sounded like they were made for a movie. That was really intentional and something that we talked about a lot. We wanted them to feel like they were songs that existed in the world that kids would like. That Miles would like.
McIntyre: This film has a large original soundtrack. It has a score, but there’s also at least one moment that I remember that has a song that was sourced from elsewhere. There’s an old soul song. So can you talk a bit about, in addition to these two albums of music that you’re working into it, there’s a third, smaller bucket of music you had to license tracks.
Lehman: That’s something that I’m very involved in. That’s the part of the contribution that I make that stays and that’s still in the movie. That’s the template that we’re making originally. It’s made up of all existing songs, right? And then a lot of those get replaced by original songs that we bring in from other artists that the label brings in, that the studio executives bring in.
That scene in particular is one that developed over time and changed at the very end. Originally there was a song in there that one of the directors, Kemp Powers, had brought in and really wanted for that scene. There was an issue with the clearance, so we weren’t able to license it.
So then we started looking at other options. I had to start trying to find something else that they would be really excited about. Then, through that development, the scene also changed and the mood of the scene changed from being a little bit darker. That moment was a little bit more ominous. Through the process of refining the movie, they realized that it was a little bit too dark and too heavy and left people really worried about Miles.
So we started looking at some other things that would still give it that darkness, because obviously it’s a really dark scene, but cut it a little bit so that it wasn’t telegraphing that Miles is going to die, but there’s some high stakes and tension and drama in the scene.
The reference song was a Mobb Deep song, and we were looking at other classic hip-hop songs in that world–trying to stay with New York artists to really ground us in this place. We tried West Coast hip-hop songs because we were like, it’s an alternate universe. Maybe Tupac is actually an East Coast artist in this alternate universe. That got too confusing.
Phil [Lord] came to me with this other idea. What if we went for a song that’s been sampled in classic New York artist hip-hop songs. And because Uncle Aaron, he knows his hip-hop, he would know the original tracks. That’s particularly a genre that I love and spend a lot of time researching and listening to myself. So it was like, this is perfect.
McIntyre: Are these the most music heavy films you’ve worked on?
Lehman: They’re definitely the biggest music films I’ve worked on. I’ve worked on films that have a lot of songs in them–a lot of original songs. And TV shows that have a lot of original songs or a lot of songs in them. But this one is definitely the most popular and the most successful.
But these are special because the music is really woven into the story. It’s a featured part of the filmmaking, and it’s conceived from the beginning that these films are going to have really important song moments and it’s going to lead to a soundtrack that hopefully is successful and connects with a big audience.
McIntyre: I write a lot about the Oscars and Best Original Song and that race. I was shocked a few years ago when “Sunflower” was not nominated. I thought that was a big miss. And I was shocked this year that this film was not a bigger part of the conversation. How do you feel about these films not being nominated while simultaneously being heralded for the music in them and being very successful?
Lehman: I think it’s hard with any award show. It’s hard to understand why they end up the way they do. We were hopeful that the song would get consideration. It’s a really great song.
The other part of it is Daniel Pemberton. That’s really the snub that I didn’t understand. His score for this film was just so incredible and just impactful in the way that it supported and drove the story. He really pushed boundaries and used all these different sounds…obviously all these different universes he brought together. That was really disappointing.
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